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Body armor
It seems like a lot of people here have lots of guns, just incase TSHTF. I was wondering though, how many people have body armor? If you think stuff will get really bad, and you plan on defending yourself against other people who have guns, seems like you would want body armor.
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I don't have any.
I've been close to purchasing a few times but have always come to this confusion. BA that is soft and that you can move in and conceal is only pistol rated. I think that's what Cops think they wilmost likely encounter. If you want rifle rated then you are at IIIa, (I think), and that is ceramic or steel plates. Heavy, Hot and cumbersome. If it's too uncomfortable to wear while working my field, I won't and then I'm screwed anyway. If I toss on some Pistol rated soft armor for working my field, I'll get shot with a rifle. FOr the $1000 I was looking at spending, I decided to just be a little more covert and avoid getting shot at all together |
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I've heard it said "it's better to have 1 gun and 1 vest than 2 guns"... I think it'd be better to have 2 guns and 1 vest instead of 3 guns... Since everyone should atleast have a longarm and sidearm. Thats splitting hairs.
Yes body armor should be just as important a part of your armament as your weaponry. As with anything else, you skimp you'll face the consequences. I am looking at buying some of the dragon skin armor next to replace my interceptor. I just put a FN Five Seven as my next pistol purchase, so that is going to be competing with armor funds... So much I want to buy and so few FRNs... |
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probably one of the soft type first - then later, maybe one of the harder/higher rated for travel - I need for two people, anyhow. recent posts with links to the guys in Argentina, indicate that it will be a necessity if it gets as bad here as it did there - Their posts were some eyeopening stuff - They like suppressors, plenty of mags, plenty of pistols, plenty of ammo - If you missed them when posted earlier http://www.buildanark.net/survival_stories.html http://goldismoney.info/forums/showt...ight=argentina |
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http://njlawman.com/Feature%20Pieces...mor-Levels.jpg You can get upto lvl 3 protection rating from soft armor (the chart is a a tad old, not much). Some soft armor will stop lvl 4 threats, but they can't be rated at lvl4 without a plate. If nothing else for 400 bucks you can brand new lvl 2a concealable armor from a major manufacture or lvl 3a outter armor in some cases. You need to be able to stop atleast pistol rounds. It'll be unlikely that anyone faces alot of AP ammo after SHTF. IMO pistol and hunting rounds (soft points/hollow points) will be the mainstay. It'd suck to get shot with a .22lr and peirce and lung becuase you didn't even spend 75 or 100 bucks and buy some old crappy PASGT vest. I started with concealable vests and worked my way up from there. I've got more I need to beef up on, but Nothing short of AP is gettng thru most of my vests. I'm working on lighter and more flexible now. |
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I bought one at a gun show about 18 years ago for $250.00, you can wear it under a shirt and you can almost not see it.
By the way in some place is ILLEGAL to wear a body armor vest. |
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The mobility factor is way overplayed, mostly by people who are having a hard time adapting to a changing world. I wore armor every day on the job operating out of a vehicle but also spending plenty of time scrambling around outside. A decent vest isn't that big of a deal, concealable-type body armor generally costs less, weighs less, is more mobile and protects as well as the very expensive tactical models. You're basically going to miss out on the collar, and even that is an available add-on accessory. Concealable vests can easily accept rifle plates.
Don't overlook a helmet, and a balistic visor. You gotta protect your noggin as you're going to have to expose your head to see your enemy. I'd up the ante and say you should also invest in some balistic glass and balistic goggles, and wear the whole mess if you expect trouble. The lenses of Oakley M Frames will stop 9mm fmj and buckshot, I've seen this first hand. You won't like stopping a bullet that way, might even lose an eye, but it sure beats a bullet through the brain. Everybody should at least get a LVL IIIA kevlar vest. They're cheap, and as far as rifles go, remember that the further the bullet travels the more velocity and energy it loses. The same thing goes for the more cover it has to penetrate. A pistol-rated vest could very well save you from a round fired from a rifle. Trust me on this, if you have to run a serious risk of getting shot on a daily basis, you will find that armor is light as a feather, very comfortable, and offers peace of mind that can't be beat! Cheap insurance, as they say. Check out the offerings at the site below, I've had good results with these guys. www.bulletproofme.com |
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I myself am most amazed at how persons can spend so much (several $1,000s) on fancy firepower and yet own no body armor whatsoever. To me that borders on some truly 'crappy' thinking... but we agree on very much you and I, Prometheus. We both agree, get some body armor once you have budgeted for adequate defensive firepower and ammo. Let's all just look to police and military thinking as an example maybe. They obviously consider it quite worthwhile... thank you for initiating this thread, Alric. Consider some potential combat survival scenarios after total societal breakdown and TSHTF : A> You are barricaded inside your frame home with food and water, and a mob or street gang approaches that has heard you are hoarding food. You refuse to let them in. (these are often cowardly opportunistic thugs) They eventually begin firing through your front door, windows and walls. You can return fire with FMJ 125gr .30 cal rounds, letting go quickly all of 30 or 75 rounds in each magazine, but being one to prefer avoidance of deadly conflict, you wait for them to open fire first, preferring not to initiate application deadly force… you warn them away “Back off or I’ll shoot!” you shout. You can see many of them but they can’t see you inside your darkened home. And you wait. You wish they would flee. Would you wish for a PASGT vest and Kevlar helmet? B> You are driving down a road in your car after ‘doomsday’ and in a ‘Mad Max Road Warriors’ world. Gangs might try and shoot your vehicle as it passes by. You have the sheet metal of a car around you to upset a bullet but no PASGT vest and helmet. Wish you had one? C> You venture to the local watering hole to get water so that it can be purified for consumption. As in the days of the dinosaurs, predators surround the area apt to bush whack those who approach. Any bystander can ’sucker punch’ you with a concealed handgun. You can return fire but you are very vulnerable to a first strike attack from a pistol. Wish you had a PASGT vest and Kevlar helmet? Keep in mind potentially there are no police, no doctors or ambulances available to treat gunshot wounds… I am prepared even a bit for that with additional contingincies, not mentioned here now. -------------------------------------------------------- Desription of the PASGT vest: http://www.lifesupportintl.com/USAStdPASGTVest.htm Constructed of Kevlar® high strength fibers, studies from Vietnam conclude that casualties could have been reduced 40% if every soldier wore a PASGT helmet and vest. My size large PASGT vest is in excellent used condition. I weighed it on a certified scale at 10.5lbs. It is 85% Aramid Kevlar fabric by composition, 13 layers deep, covering neck, sides, and tops of shoulders, and in a few areas it is doubled by overlapping layers. Tests show it will stop at the least; .45ACP, .38spcl, buckshot, at point blank 7 yards distance… and many other more potent rounds, especially if they have already penetrated a barricade or ricocheted and have ‘upset’ themselves. Same for a Kevlar helmet, mine a British MK-6 level III, which I bought surplus for $29.00. Even if I am caught in the open, I might take cover behind a tree or automobile, and that shielding object would likely upset a penetrating rifle or pistol bullet… and thus that bullet would become essentially like flak to my Aramid vest. If I were trying to sell $800 to $1200 ballistic soft body armor I too would refer to the PASGT vest as crap. I would point out that it does not offer blunt trauma protection. But consider much body armor is worn under clothing and over a mere t-shirt, for police use. The PASGT is most effective if worn over heavy clothing such as a padded coat, to help absorb blunt trauma. People like to say it does not even qualify as “bulletproof“, although it is military specified as an effective “flak jacket“. It does not qualify for NIJ bulletproof tests because it is front opening by overlapping layers closed by Velcro, thus it is disqualified. And the military does not typically face pistol fire, in warfare it is much more common to face rifle fire, so they would not refer to it as “bulletproof” with such a military rifle mindset either. An example of soft body armor function is this; When I was a kid I fired Daisy BBs and used a light woven blanket of cotton for a backdrop to stop them. It absorbs the impact gradually by spreading energy over a moving web. Yet the BBs would penetrate a hard steel can or wood veneer paneling … this is perhaps an example of how tough fabric can stop a bullet that penetrates a 'hard object' but still deliver some blunt trauma behind it. My green camo vest looks almost like new, shows no evidence of dry cleaning or hard wear, and was made in the mid 1990’s perhaps. It was in common use by US military until about 1999. I bought it on Ebay about 2 years ago. Some states have outlawed or regulated the purchase of body armor already… And many here still wait, rather than buying their own right now. I also have hard plastic knee pads and elbow pads. (lightly used ice skating rink pads, spray painted camo) The floor or ground might be hard rock or concrete, not padded carpet, or covered with shards of glass… and if or when I dive fast for the floor upon the first shots being fired, I do not want to injure these vital and vulnerable-to-impact body joints, and thereby be distracted by pain, or even crippled. Consider that in a barricade situation from a frontal attack the vest can potentially be removed and placed double layered (26 layers of Kevlar) over the back of a chair, or even a box of books, as I remain crouched behind it. I have thought about all this and I have a limited budget for my wish list of contingent preparation. I got by for less than $100 FRNs... But as always, I may be wrong. Actual tests of this vest show: --------------------------------------------------------- Thousands of the PASGT vests have hit the surplus market, especially in recent years when upgrade armor like the RBA and later Interceptor began to hit the scene. Still, we see a lot of coverage in the press and whiner corps that PASGT is "next to no protection at all" or "is not body armor". Well that is a matter of opinion. Up to recently most law enforcement agencies considered level IIA to be a fairly good mix of mobility and cost vs protection against small arms fire. At that, they usually meant handguns and short barreled shotguns commonly used in the urban areas or carried in vehicles. Body armor capable of stopping Kalachnikov rounds at close range has never been a realistic priority because short range attacks on law enforcement by assailants using assault rifles are quite uncommon. First was the .45, using 230 grain jacketed "ball" ammo fired from a Kimber 1911 type pistol. As expected, penetration was minimal, with the bullets not even impacting the last layer of nylon, let alone the last few layers of kevlar. Three hits fairly close together did nothing to threaten the integrity of the vest. I did, however see evidence of what would be some fairly serious blunt trauma on the plastic placed inside the vest. This suggests that you would still have the possibility of serious organ bruising or rib damage if a person wearing the vest gets hit. I think such hits would be survivable. At what were virtually point blank ranges, the 9mm ball ammo had a 50% chance of penetrating the body armor when the rounds hit in relatively close proximity to each other. This suggests that multiple hits on the same area will weaken the armor enough for bullets to eventually penetrate up close. This could include a burst from a submachinegun or multiple hits from a handgun. Note, however, that there was not a whole lot of blunt trauma with the rounds that were stopped by the vest. The tests are not fully concluded, but they do show how you do get significant protection from these vests which are available relatively cheap on the market. It also shows that the PASGT is far better than detractors give it credit for. It is not Interceptor armor, but it is also not half bad. http://www.savvysurvivor.com/PASGTarmortest.htm I have personally tested some fairly trashed samples of PASGT armor and found that they perform quite well against nearly all handgun rounds but lack much in the way of blunt trauma protection. .44 magnum did not penetrate, but hit with such force that it was obvious such a hit would probably be fatal anyway. ALL centerfire rifle rounds we tested zipped right through both sides of the vest we used in the evaluation. Usually worn over other clothing. http://savvysurvivor.com/body_armor_for_sale.htm When the PASGT Vest was worn in combat areas, an 18-53 percent decrease (threat dependent) in all fragmentation caused casualties was predicted and largely realized. (note term, "casualties", not even mentioning a reduction in KIAs) The PASGT vest could be upgraded to stop 7.62-mm rounds by teaming it with the Interim Small Arms Protective Overvest. However, the combined weight of the two systems was 25.1 pounds, considered too much by most soldiers. The approximate cost to the US Government of each vest was $350... http://www.olive-drab.com/od_soldier...rmor_pasgt.php |
Re: Body armor
I'm not even thinking about firearms protection...at least I hadn't been
My partner and I were talking about it and I said if it came to having to protect ourselves because things got that bad, like tainting city water to kill masses or what ever, I don't think I'd even want to be here. We talked about building a sub-basement in our new home, for more protection and to be able to hide and protect ourselves, food, gold and whatever else. Again, I said if it came to that, life as I know it or have known it, wouldn't be enjoyable any more, so screw it...I wouldn't want to be here anymore. If I can't go outside and watch a bird fly, a goose or two swimming about on the lake...kids fishing, than it's all not worth being any more. |
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I figured you were with me, Prometheus. Thanks, I never want to get you mad at me...
:top: Many times I myself may provoke comment with an unintentional mis-expressed or mis-understood sentiments or cues. This is often good because it aids clarity. thank you for allowing me to ramble on about a favorite discussion of mine among speculative 'survival contingency types'. I think Americans in general, both civilian forces and military forces, concentrate way too much on ACTIVE DEFENSE, not PASSIVE DEFENSE. Active defense wears one down to a frazzle, one never knows from whence or when the enemy is going to attack but must be prepared constantly to counter the attack. Much energy is expended so risks are avoided by being ready to attack. It is all about needing to do something. Active offense is a result of active defense. It is difficult and expensive of energy and supplies. Passive defense is low in energy expenditure. Camoflage, concealment, obscurity, longevity, or defensive armor are all that is required. Passive offense is a result of passive defense. It is relatively easy and is needy of low expense in energy and supplies. It is all about not needing to do something. See as possible examples of this concept: http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...t/1984/BJQ.htm http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita.../6-50/Apph.htm We in the US, since Korea, confuse defense with offense in general. The Military Industrial Complex defensive strategy often relies on it primarily, and thus it cultivates this public mindset. As evidence we have a complete lack of 'Civil Defense', something that is an example of responsible passive defense. We rely now on FEMA and martial law, active defense, ala New Orleans perhaps. Why have we been made to forget individual civilian preparedness so? Pardon this rhetorical question here at GIM... no need to answer. So you see, I love to ramble on with opinion. Thanks Prometheus, for your good neighborly input on this GIM forum, in my opinion. Mine is mostly here opinion anyway. :coolbeer: for Prometheus: "We Didn't Start the Fire" - an audio clip by Billy Joel http://www.bbc.co.uk/h2g2/blobs/billyjoel.jpg http://www.bbc.co.uk/h2g2/ram/startthefire.ram |
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If yo get one of those PASGT vests with the velcro closure you're going to want to do something about the velcro because it has a tendency to fly open as soon as you start moving in creative ways. I'd reccomend installing a large plastic zipper or fastex buckles.
FWIW, 1/4 of mild steel plate will stop a lot of handgun rounds, and two such plates spaced a few inches to a foot apart will stop even more. This could be useful for armoring a house. Also, 6 inches of sand will stop many rifles and handguns, so don't overlook the good earth as a form of armor. A sandbag will stop more than a concrete block wall will, if you were to line your wall with at least 1 layer of sandbags to a height of 36 inches and sleep below that line you'd be ahead of the game. With your helmet, balistic visor and rifle you could drive off those marauders firing on your home while exposing very little of yourself. Two things, if you find yourself the target of incoming fire, vacate the area in which you were a target immediately. This can mean something simple like dropping to the ground (vertical relocation) and rolling (horizontal relocation). If possible you want to be moving towards cover. Second, shoot and relocate. Don't remain static in the same position. If you fire from the left window, go and fire from the right window, then through the doggy door. If you stay in one place the enemy can start planning ways to take you out. If you're able to move around and keep up a high volume of fire they may believe you're actually more than one person. Use common sense, of course. Don't scramble around for five minutes looking for a new place to shoot from, not being able to see what the badguys are doing the whole time, that would be dumb. At least try to shoot out of both sides of a piece of cover, through two windows, etc. Also, if you're right handed you will have a tendency to expose a lot of yourself when firing from the left side of a piece of cover. Switch to the left shoulder and you can stay in tighter. For that reason you should practice firing your guns lefthanded, it really isn't that hard. |
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What do you think of getting stab resistance inserts with it? Seems like it would suck if you got good body armor then some guy stabs you in the back with a knife.
Not sure how likely it would be for someone to stab you but it seems like more people will have a knife than a gun, especially when they run out of ammo because they never kept more than a box at a time. |
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Knives worry me than guns in a close quarters battle. I'm going to hope they slash at my vest rather than stab for now. I hope never to get into any CQB situations, but I am prepared. |
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How many people know how to fight, with either a gun or a knife? I don't think they are going to target any part of you. With a gun they will just point and shoot and with a knife, they will just run up and stab you, not try to go for your neck or anything.
If they weren't trying to sneak up on you though, I think they will try to slash you instead. But then I have never been in a knife fight before so I am not really sure. |
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When a man fights you with a knife one must expect to get cut... if not he is lucky, has created a weapon to counter of some kind, or is very good at close quarters combat. (or you can run really fast)
I personally think this is a very good little book. If nothing else it will demonstrate how brutal and deadly hand-to-hand combat is. Elbow strikes, knee strikes, kicks and heel strikes almost always take the place of fists -- if that gives you an idea... The training in this book is not kid stuff, very effective, and relatively simple. The rest is up to you. Maybe practice with a partner (gently). You better shop around. ----------------------- U.S. Marines Close-Quarters Combat Manual http://i1.ebayimg.com/03/c/00/c2/56/28_7.JPG :boxing: US Marines Close-Quarters Combat Manual. The LINE (linear in-fighting neural-override engagement) is the most efficient and complete system of military close combat ever developed. This official USMC instruction manual provides comprehensive instruction in all aspects of this deadly system, including unarmed combat methods, knife and bayonet fighting and use of improvised weapons. 5 1/2 x 8 1/2, softcover, photos, 200 pp. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/087...lance&n=283155 And REV, the velcro closure on the PASGT is not really any problem. It is hard to pull open, one over the other and held by a velcro strip about 1.5" wide. The aramid overlaps well there. I metioned to show just the way the test was designed, almost to disqualify it and show preference to those sold to police and civilians, in my mind. But a good idea to think of it as you did anyway. A side benefit of body armor, although heavy, it spreads the impact of jabs to the torso area and clavacle, solar plexus, ribs, kidneys -- in hand to hand combat. The PASGT guards the back and sides of the neck as well. But I don't know... |
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Vests w/o plates can weight anywhere from a couple of pounds to several. Just depends on the type. Concealable lvl 2 & 3 vests are pretty light, interceptors and dragon skin will weight 8 pounds (IIRC) plus the plates (5-6 pounds each). I'd like to buy some bicept and thigh lvl 3 soft armor as well one day... So much to cover so little FRNs. That and it starts to get heavy and or hot after enough time. Keep in mind the troops in Iraq are wearing full armor in the desert heat, so it isn't something that is impossibly hot. Just need lots of fluids. |
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Thats a problem where I live. You can wear shorts here 9 months out of the year. It gets hot. Not sure what I am going to do, I guess you just live with it.
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I Don't think I'd add any extra plates to the dragon skin. I might put a lvl 2 concealed underneath for the added blunt trams protection and 'just in case' effect. I don't think anything fired at a dragonskin with a 2 underneath would make it all the way thru except a .50 bmg. Also not popular with gang bangers :bandit: |
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My husband does Krav Maga (Israeli martial "art." It teaches you some very similar skills. Jennifer www.discountsilverclub.com |
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The BA our guys wear in Iraq weighs in at 38 lbs. And it doesn't breathe at all. And is hotter than, well, you know... BUT it WILL stop most major rifle rounds that are not AP. Who will have AP rounds to shoot? I WILL. I DO. Whatever. But FMJ does and excellent job in most situations anyway. And the wife and I are in the process of finalizing our retirement home design. It's straw bale. It will be two bales thick with 18 inches of concrete in between the bales. My destructive testing has so far shown that will stop a .50 bmg round. I have NOT been able to test against either RPG or 40mm grenade rounds. Hopefully a buddy of mine will be able to arrange some destructive testing in the next few months. IT was his .50 that we used for the first set of tests. I personally recommend that if you want to know where we are going, look to the south. Homes in Mexico and further south ALL have 10 - 15 foot walls surrounding their homes. Broken glass on top of the walls provides a disincentive to would be break in artists. Heavy entrance gates and generally only ONE large entrance point for vehicles with another smaller entrance for personnel. You MUST think of these things. IF our leaders continue us down the path we are on, within ten years, the US WILL BE a 3rd world country. We are rapidly getting there. But that's just my .02 - what do I know?? |
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I don't think 38lb armor is practical unless you know someone is comming. I wouldn't be worried about RPG's either, unless you plan an army attacking you.
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16.8 pounds (size large) with the vest, collar, throat, groin protectors and front and rear SAPI plates. The soft vest is rated for +p subgun roudns (Level 3a) and the plates are rated for multiple .223 and 7.62x39 AP rounds and single hit .308 AP round in conjunction with the soft armor. |
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Do they have concealable armor that protects the arms and legs?
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